Crossbow Poll

[barryonly]

Kpr, through this site and NSH, I have come to highly respect your opinions and candor, even when I don't agree with you. I find your responses to this topic to be out of character for you.

Though the AGM is an inconvenience to most members to attend, it is absolutely necessary. The issues raised need to be discussed so that all members voting understand the full scope of the issue that they are voting on, and so that all members can share their views on these issues prior to voting. A web based voting system would result in votes made with very little thought, based on antiquated misconceptions and not based on the current political or social situation.

The "upper echelon" are the members who stepped up to take on the task of running and organizing the association, and I assume that like TAANS, they didn't have a long list of members begging to fill these positions. They happen to be in the same group of 6-10 members who post on this site. The views of PS and HW on this site are the opinions of members engaged in an open dialogue, not the opinions of senior dictators trying to force their views on everyone below them. At least that is how I see it.

Yes, BANS does solicit a token membership fee out of me each year, but they also solicit my opinions and participation at the AGM. I was given an opportunity to voice my opinion on crossbows, but because I didn't attend the AGM, I forfeited that opportunity. What should the executive of this association do if only a handful of members attend the AGM each year? They cannot even effectively use this website to test the waters, since an even smaller percentage of the membership post on this site. If the association has 150 members, and only 20 show up to vote and 11 vote against them in the archery season, that is the position of the association. That is democracy. A vote to support their use during the rifle season does not mean that this Bowhunter Association should be actively supporting their inclusion, otherwise they would have voted for their inclusion in the bow season.

As a member of this association, you can put a motion on the floor, and get the attending members to vote on it, and this executive will honor the wishes of the majority who attend, or they will resign.

[litekpr]

Barry,
I find it kinda odd that all the issues that get dealt with come out ONLINE after the fact...however...never before the fact.
The people dealing with these issues are online plenty.
A very simple task IMO.
The fact that I am required to attend meetings to be heard or "count" for something in this ORG other than a number is probably what will drive me away.
That fact the "it sucks to be you cause you didn't attend a meeting" attitude is not going to bring new members or keep newer ones sending in dues IMO.

Why would anyway bother and for what purpose?

[barryonly]

I understand what you are saying Likekpr, unfortunately I don't see any possible solution that would completely solve this problem. In any organization that I have been a member of, the onus has been on the member to attend if they wanted to be part of the direction ahead.

But here is a partial solution that I propose: if an agenda is emailed or mailed out to all members 2 months ahead of the AGM, at least all members will be aware of what is on the table. This agenda would include an invite for each member to log onto this website where each issue would have a separate thread that could be discussed to get all issues out. Members would also be able to take this opportunity to add topics to the agenda. If we eventually got a large majority of the members online, we could discuss moving to an online voting format, and for members without internet access we could mail the transcripts of the threads to them prior to voting so that they were well aware of all the issues prior to phoning or mailing in their votes.

What do you think HW? This year we could at least try getting discussion going ahead of time and see how many get involved. It would give members another opportunity to share their opinion so that we don't lose good members because they feel that they aren't being heard. Also, it would get more members on this site.

[POINTY STICKS]

Barry and KPR I can't disagree with your concerns about after the fact. The problem which happens every year in that BANS dosen't receive any resolution for the Members to vote on until the day they of our AGM. Is the system flawed? yes. Are there thing which can help fix this? yes. Are the majority of members going to participate? I don't know but they don't have a good track record there. As for the federation level, I can't say if that can be fixed, but I agree it should be.

We can't forward information to the members if we don't have it. So for now at the very least I can froward info after the fact. If you have a issue with the information you receive, then if nothing else now you can express those issues and open the door for dialog.

You asked who gets asked about these question, and when, well everyone gets to express their concerns,either face to face, some at the AGM, emails, phone conversations, and yes even in some cases archery shoots such as 3D's the Bang up, the TAANS shoot . For the record ALL BIANS instructors are BANS members, but no BANS does not necessarily get invited to their AGM (they are a separate organization). They however do send a rep to our AGM each year to express issues they feel are important to bowhunting in NS

BANS will represent any bowhunter in NS weather or not they are members. It's the members who get to vote on resolutions at our AGM. If you want something brought before the members at the AGM get it to us, if you can't make it their, well your passion and concerns cannot be justly represented by someone reading words on a page.

[barryonly]

Sorry PS, I made the assumption that BANS took resolutions to NSFAH, not the other way around. This will change the way that I look at things.

It is a very backwards way of doing things to not present the issues ahead of time, what is the reason for this? Other than to prevent politicking, I can't see any good from this policy. It prevents members from making well thought out and informed decisions, instead it forces them to make decisions off the cuff.

Even though it is not BANS fault, I can certainly understand Kpr's (and other's) frustration.

[huntwisely]

As was said previously, Even on the old site there were names and phone numbers. I wish that folks would use them, snail mail or e-mail any questions and concerns, ideas for resolutions, etc all year long. It would make the AGM all the more fruitful and have a greater benefit to all.

Like most organization though, it seem the majority that join expect that paying dues is all it take sto make the organization run. Unfortunately, no one on the executive can read minds. Therefore ideas for resolutions are usualyy formmed at the AGM, instead of brought forward almopst worded correctly and ready for voting on by BANS. The majority of those attending the AGM have to agree that any resolution is sent to the NSFAH AGM for their voting process, which is in my opinion flawed, but under scrutiny. I say this as a BANS representative, I do not find out what the other groups resolutions are until Friday night before the AGM. That means I have to vote on something without having a chance to discuss it with the BANS membership. I know its flawed, but for now that is what we are dealing with.

Another unfortunate thing is that BANS only has e-mail addresses for about 1/2 its members. A lot of those with addresses seldom check for e-mails.

Those that know us, know that PS or myself are always up for a good discussion - how else do we learn what others are thinking, or exchange information. None of us are really so stuck in the mud we can't get out . But one must always look at the BIG picture and not just the individual pieces of the jig saw puzzle.

Issues that are contentious - like coroosbows - have to be approached in a careful manner. As or right now, they are not legally bows, nor can they be shot anywhere in NS legally. SO if folks really want them, first they have to be made legal to shoot in NS. They they have to be put in a season, either in their own season - teh general open season for deer or in archery season. There is a lot of opposition to them in archery seasons all over North America - but we must concern ourselves with NS, with a lower deer per Sq mile than practically anywhere else in North America and a long season already. We also know we have a long archery season due to very low success rates. We now in some startes the success rates have risen dramatically with the introduction of crossbows to archery seasons. The feeling is that we don't want to put our archery seaons as we have it now in jeoprady. Too many folks worked too hard for them. So BANS and other compromised and supported the Resolution at the Federation table to put them in the general open season. We can't support them in archery season as the law doen't recognize them as bows.

Tiny steps, I know, but steps none the less.

There are always thing in the planning stages or conceptual stages. Theydon't get brought forward until it is know whether they are viable ideas or not. They get discussed at the BANS Bangup, conversations, e-mails or other public forums, they just may not be recognized, becaus we don't do polls - like the one that you can vote on multiple times.

Sure is good to get some dialogue going though -

[POINTY STICKS]

Barry you were correct BANS takes it's resolution to the Federation.

That I tried to say was BANS members seem to wait until our AGM in Oct before bringing in any resolutions to BANS They usually just come to the AGM to submit any they might have at that time. The members present at the BANS AGM vote on these as weather or not BANS is to submit them to the Federation for the Spring Convention. Those which are submitted have to be done so by the middle of Feb.

What I meant by the after the fact is that I can not pass along any information on BANS resolutions because we usually don't have any info before hand from our members. The Federation level resolution (other than BANS ones) we do not know what the others submitted until the weekend of the convention. There are 30 some organizations which attend the Federation AGM. Not all submit resolution. Resolution fall in to 3 categories, mammal, miscellaneous and fish and bird.

Yes the system is flawed,(IMO) the resolution should be made available to the organizations before we have to vote on them.

It would also allow the Org's to share the resolution with their members and maybe more people would take the time to go to the meeting to express there views and concerns on them. Then maybe there would be a more active representation of what the hunting community would like to see. Instead of getting crapped on for the outcome on select issues.

When you get 6 resolution submitted on increasing the bear harvest, and your members have never discussed such topics, you try and gather what info is present at the convention from the submitting groups and DNR and vote the best way you think. If your talking crossbows and it had been discussed at our BANS AGM (more than once) and the members voted not in favor of them period, let alone in archery season. Is it a fair representation of the BANS members? Well, you be the judge.

For the record. BANS only gets one vote at each table we put a delegate at, there are three tables (as stated before). Because of our membership numbers we can send 3 delegates one for each table. We also are charged a fee according to our membership numbers for sending those delegates. Some groups only send one and it's usually to the mammals table. There were 22 voting delegates at the Mammals, 10 at the Fish and Bird and somewhere in between (I do not have a count)for the Miscellaneous table this year. Only one delegate at each table was from BANS.

I am willing to discuss anything I have knowledge of with any member or non member who cares to ask. My knowledge, straight out of the box, is short term but I'm willing to try and find answers. The questions asked of myself and the other Executives are few and far between. I'd love to see both those change. I am one of the voted representatives of BANS. The members at the AGM have twice voted to have me as secretary and membership chair. The other executives President, Vice President and Treasurer are all voted on by the members as well. We can be replaced if somebody is willing to step in and take over a thankless position with no perks, no pay and lots of negative remarks by both members and non members when you say something they don't agree with. The floor is open to all.

[alpo]

someone should suggest a suggusolution section, where members could articulate their new ideas , and provide us all with a heads up of what on the next AGM's agenda.
An old fasion suggusolution box with some paper at the BANG UP or other 3D events might yeild something worth discussing too.............. .
............. . . . .. . or even a form survey could go a long way in gauging a memberships feeling on a group of issues, that they would like to see disscussed at the AGM.

[huntwisely]

Alpo = I'm not saying it was perfect or that it can't be vhanged, but the old page had contact info with the names of the Executive, this page has a Contact BANS link and there a few of the Executive that go to 3D shoots, we get input at the Bamgup and other 3D shoots. WIth conversations, I ask for either the suggestion in writing or an e-mail so it can be discussed further and in the originator's words. We are thinking of having a more prominate presence at a lot of the shoots and would like to have area directors - but the same few show up at the meetings, etc.

Keep the suggestions coming - it is all a hlp to making the organization more pertinent to its members.

[litekpr]

Man o man...
Makes no wonder

I don't understand the logic behind making everyone go in blind so to speak.
WHO THE HE** THOUGHT THAT UP?!!!!
Good that that came to light,makes things (the way they are) alot clearer.

Any idea what other orgs think of doing business in this fashion?
If this is the way NSFAH directs that it be done and all the others are not happy with it...maybe it's time for a change?
Sure makes it hard IMO for any org to please members I would think.
Confusing just trying to read it and keep up....my scroller will be worn out here in a bit....
Grrrrrrrrr...now that I previewed I can't see the last posts

[litekpr]

Quote....

It would also allow the Org's to share the resolution with their members and maybe more people would take the time to go to the meeting to express there views and concerns on them. Then maybe there would be a more active representation of what the hunting community would like to see.

End Quote...

I KNOW IT WOULD....
If there was something that tweeked your interest or ire well then....of course it is incentive to go.


Sheldon, I think more people want to be involved and have some say on issues, I truely do just at the moment they feel there are so many hoops and hurdles.
When is the BANS meeting held?

I now realize what you guys are up against. HOLY HANNAH!

As just a member I guess it's ok for me to say...

THAT SYSTEM SUCKS BIGTIME!
It needs to be changed to allow for briefings and forethought to put the people that it affects the most "in the know"
Pretty sure it would make for alot more "appeasing" decisions also.

[alpo]

I was not actually suggesting it anyways HW, because that might have implied I was volenteering some of my time to see it through.
I think a quick , one page survey, with some room for comments, could get some of the desired opinions of the membership, and not be too much of a clerical nightmare, atleast not with our limited membership numbers, as well as give non-member bowhunters some avenue to voice concerns.

[archeryman57]

All good points fellows.
Now I would like to start a poll and ask how many want a x-bow season during archery season, just to make what they do now, legal.

[litekpr]

If ya know someone doin it A57 you should probably turn them in cause anyone outside of here would consider a crossbow a bow and anything untowards would be directed at bowhunters in general.

Just a thought.

[POINTY STICKS]

KPR to answer your question on our next meeting (BANS AGM), thats in October. Many of the other have more frequent meetings but then again many of those (but not all) are very regional.

I will say this my disgruntled member ;D ,

I'm glad a couple of our members have something to say. Maybe more members will read threads such as this and speak up. As HW stated we can't read minds. Emails, post on this site,phone calls, snail mail and face to face are great ways to get information moving back and forth. I'm sorry to say at this time the AGM is where we do our voting, but anything sent into us before hand will get tabled and voted on by the members present. It would be nice if we could attempt to inform our own members about resolutions before hand. Even a quick mail out with the resolution to be discussed and voted on sent to your house would allow more people to come and argue and call me names, and fuss, and well you understand but at least they would know and more would show. Thing is I don't get anything to send out. Last year we did ask via this site for members to submit any resolution, I didn't get any

This is a BOWHUNTERS organization and myself and the other Executives are your representatives. It would be nice to represent a group of people who wish to do something for hunting and fishing in NS

You bowhunt,I bowhunt we are on the same side.